The World Not According to Garp
An Interview with Eugene Smiley
By: Connie "Crash" Humiston and DaWayne Gilley
I can’t imagine a soul out there in BluesNews Land who doesn’t know of Eugene Smiley’s Kansas City musical abilities, dating back to 1957 and ranging from R&B, gospel, soul, and blues. Newcomers will know Smiley as a co-founder, lead vocalist, and lead guitarist of the "Mighty BWB Show Band" , as well as touring with Brody Buster from 1995 to 1997. Recently, Smiley has formed the four-piece Eugene Smiley Blues Band and the eight-piece ESB Show Band. He has just released a personal treasure in his debut CD Straight From the Soul. For CD purchase or bookings, contact Burns Management at 816-358-4592.
Some may not know that Smiley has performed with Johnnie Taylor, Al Green, Rufus Thomas, Bobby Womack, Albert King, Al Green, the Stylistics, Eddy Kendrics, Albert Collins, Vernon Garrett, The Chi-lites, and many other illustrious musicians. Along with Brody, Smiley has even performed at the White House and appeared on numerous national television shows. His most prolific years were from 1968-1972 when he was the featured vocalist for "The Visitors", a vocal group who released acclaimed songs for Chicago’s Brunswick Records/Dekar Label and toured the country with the label, along with Tyrone Davis, Barbara Ackling, Gene Chandler, the Artistics, and others, all on the same tickets as the likes of James Brown and Aretha Franklin. The Visitors released three or four 45’s that sold real well and made a lot of the magazines such as Billboard and Jet. The group had the moves, dress, and jewelry very similar to the Temptations and the Impressions, "That was the thang. If you could step and sing, hey, you had it made."
Talking with Smiley is like going back in a time capsule, so watch for continuing articles relating to the overall music scene of the past. The focus of this article is the Kansas City Blues Scene, past, present, and future. Smiley was on the scene during the 12th Street and 18th Street and Vine days and continues to make his mark in Kansas City, as well as touring nationally.
Smiley was born in New Orleans in ‘44. Due to the break-up of his family he shuffled between relatives in New Orleans, Kansas City (from ‘55), and Brookhaven, MS, a little place south of Jackson where there were plenty of Fish Frys on Friday and Saturday nights. He’s been singing since he was four and only picked up the guitar after 1972. Following is part of the interview ( a long part!) with Smiley:
The beginnings:
When were you born, and where were you born.
In ’44, born in New Orleans, birthday is January 12, Capricorn. And, I kind of lived between New Orleans, Kansas City, and a little place south of Jackson, MS, Brookhaven, MS. I kind of stayed with grandparents and aunts and stuff like that. My family was like broke up, and my father, I never knew my father. I saw him a few times but never knew much about him. As far as my mother, I remember back to maybe 4 or 5 years old. And that was the last time that I saw my mother until about 1987 or 1988. I found her, then I found out that, hey, I’ve got like 5 brothers and 3 sisters. Quite a surprise. (Laughter) But, anyway, I’ve just been kind of like, since I’ve been here in Kansas City, it’s just like it’s been music, music, music. Um, down south, with Grandma it was like Blues, Fish Frys on Friday nights, get in the front yard and dance and play and sing. But it was blues. I saw a guy playing a guitar had 3 strings on it, but he could play it, he could play it and sing.
It was like on Saturday nights somebody had a fish fry in the neighborhood and it was like a lot of drinking white lightening. I don’t know how they drink that stuff. I had an uncle used to drink that stuff, and his breath smelled so bad. Man, I couldn’t stand to stay in the house with him.
How did you start getting involved with music?
Oh, God, I was really young. I remember one Saturday evening, the choir was rehearsing in church, and so they was singing this song, and I had heard my father sing it, so I went down there. They wasn’t singing it right. And my grandma told me about this, and so I showed ‘em how to sing it.
How old were you?
I was about 4 or 5 years old, and it’s like I’ve been singing ever since. So, my aunt started taking piano lessons. She was a few years older than me, maybe 7 or 8 years older than me. And I would listen to her play, and I would kind of pick up the different melodies. Then pretty soon I got to the place I could play the whole piece she was playing, and I hadn’t studied no music. So, my grandma goes and gets this white guy that had all these different instruments, and they just sit down, and they gave me one at a time. Some of this stuff I don’t even know what they were. And they checked me out, and evidently I was this gifted kid in music at that age. And then it was like everyday when my grandma went to work it was like I got this piano here, and I was playing every day, you know, I was playing Fats Domino, and I could sing. I was probably about 8. The bad part about it was Grandma came home. She didn’t want to hear that, so that kind of cut it short, but there was like from about 9:00 or 10:00 in the morning until 1:30 in the afternoon that’s all I did. She didn’t want to hear that noise if you wasn’t playing Jesus Nail Me to the Cross.
Who were some of your early music influences? How’d you get around that where she wanted you to stay close to the Lord?
She was no problem. She was a pushover. I was her grandson and had my own radio in my room. I used to like this guy. His name was Johnny Ace. Hot dog, I thought he was the man. And there was some other singers that I liked. Fats Domino was doing pretty good. He had a nice thing going that was easy for me to play on the keyboard. But I kind of started picking up things, different styles like Johnny Ace, the Drifters, and I just started learning from them, you know, and the next thing I knew when I got a little older I was in school and stuff and I found out that I could probably really sing. We had talent shows and battles of the groups, all kind of things, and I was always hanging in there. It was amazing though. As far as grades was concerned and music was concerned I never made anything less than an E or an A. I didn’t even try. I didn’t study this stuff. I feel it, I hear it. And it’s kind of like I got out of high school, and I had to make a choice. What am I going to do with my life? That’s when I decided to go to Chicago and become a star. Well, to my surprise when I got down there, at first it was just wonderful, it was great, I was in the studio every day five days a week nine to five.
What year did you go to Chicago, and did you know someone there?
’67. Well, a few months before I left here the Chi-lites had came down and did a show at Town Hall Ballroom, so the guy that booked the show in there also booked my little four-piece group to open the show up for them. Now, I got to talking to Eugene Records, the guy who was doing most of their writing and arranging at that time for the Chi-lites, and he was excited. He said, "Man, you come on and go with me down in Chicago. I’m sure Carl Davis will want your group." So I said OK, and I got home, and I got to thinking, and I said I gotta make the best of this. I thought I’d go to Motown first, then come back to Chicago, and that’s what I did. I went to Motown and they signed me to this arranger, his name was Choko Campbell, and we went in and we did some auditioning, and then he gave us the scoop.
This is at Hitsville?
Yeah, he gave us the scoop. And he says, "I’m gonna train you guys for nine to ten months. And we were pretty happy with that. And, so, we were down there maybe two or three days in Detroit, so we came back. We stopped in Chicago, and that’s how we got hooked up with Brunswick, ‘cause they were saying like "I got the money to produce you. I can sign you up right now. And, I can have you recorded within a couple of weeks." And, that just blew my mind, and so that’s what I did. They signed us two riders, and we did a few songs.
And were you playing guitar and singing at the time.
No, no, it was a vocal group. I was just singing. I didn’t even know how to play guitar.
Who were the guys in the group?
Let’s see, there was Darrell Penrays. He was the barritone singer. Wilbert Taylor, he was second tenor, and Ray Foreman, first tenor. And, I was the lead vocalist.
Any of them guys still playing or did anything beyond your group?
I think Ray Foreman, he continued. He went on with Bobby Womack, but I don’t know where he went to from there. I like, um, left Chicago in ’70, ’71, and started re-establishing myself back in Kansas City, although I still toured and stuff, but I didn’t want to live in Chicago. I didn’t like what I saw as far as the music business, and I didn’t want to get involved because of my upbringings, you know. And, I decided, well, I’ll just go back to school, finish raising my kids. Well, I tried that. I couldn’t hang.
This is ’70. You’re 26 years old probably.
Yeah, I couldn’t hang. I tried to give it up. I got back into it in ’74, I believe it was. See, my contract expired in ’72. I got back into it. I think it was ’74, with another recording contract right here in Kansas City.
Wait, you lived here in Kansas City and continued to tour some, and they accepted that you left Chicago.
Well, really they didn’t have any choice ‘cause I had a two-year contract with a three-year option. The option was that I could decide which way I want to go after my two years was up. And, I think they kind of blackballed me, but it didn’t hurt me.
So, did you have some released on Brunswick?
Yeah, I had three or four.
What were some of the titles?
Uh, "Until You Came Along" , that did really good.
The name of the band again was the Visitors?
Yeah, the Visitors. "I’m in Danger", that did good for us. Um, "Little Golden Band", that did good for us. And there was another one, I think. I forgot the name of it. But, those 45’s, they made a lot of the magazines, Billboard Magazine they were in Jet Magazine quite a while. And, then the group broke up after that. It was like I was supposed to have been released from Brunswick to Atlantic, and I didn’t like it because I didn’t like leaving the group. I wanted to be a group singer. I didn’t want to stand up by myself and sing. I didn’t have enough nerve to do that by myself. And so I just kind of weasiled out of it. I came back to Kansas City and started playing the guitar. I had a friend of mine that was kind of coaching me. His name was Teddy Gatsen, James Gatsen’s brother. And I guess it took me about a year or so to really be able to play on the stage.
With all of those instruments they were bringing you as a kid, the guitar wasn’t one of them?
The guitar was one of them, but I couldn’t play the guitar. I didn’t understand it. I knew what it was. I didn’t understand about it. Naturally you hear 1-3-5-1 which is a complete major chord. OK, the guitar is not tuned that way. The keyboard was so much simpler because everything is right there, but the guitar is like, what is this? And I really didn’t want to deal with the guitar, but the people who play it thought it was so much fun that I picked it up. Well, my oldest boy was just a little kid then, and I was home babysitting with him, and that’s kind of how I picked it up.
You said growing up you lived at some point in Kansas City?
I had moved here to Kansas City permanent when I left here to go to Chicago.
You went from Mississippi to Kansas City?
Yeah, it was like some of the time I went to school in Kansas City, and some of the time I went to school in Mississippi.
So, you had family here then? You’re talking about high school years?
Oh yeah, high school, junior high.
You were in New Orleans. When did you leave New Orleans?
Very young. I guess I was there until I was a year and a half. I remember traveling back and forth to New Orleans because I had people there, too. My mother was from New Orleans.
Any particular things or stories you might remember? Anything that really impressed you? You were a teenager then.
Well, I think the most impressing thing that I can remember is when I walked into Brunswick in Chicago and got the kind of welcome I got. And the strange thing about that was we had been to seven or eight different recording studios. We went to Chess and others. No one turned us down, but they wanted to set an appointment for us to talk to one of the producers, and when I walked into Brunswick it was like no appointment. Come on in. Let me hear what you got. And, it was like, "Can you sing this song? Just like this? Just like you got it here on this 45." And, we did it. And next thing I know they gave us two writers. And the strange thing about these writers they just went back on the keyboard and they started playing something and told you just hum along. Then you got another guy over here writin’ lyrics. That’s how we came out with the first two songs. And they were good songs, "Until You Came Along" and "I’m in Danger".
When did you start writing songs?
Well, I was writing songs before that. I didn’t really know the magic formula. And my songs, it would be "Baby, I love you. Now, Baby, I don’t like you no more". And then when I listened to those pro’s do it out there, and I watched and saw what they were doing, they were telling a complete story and putting music to it. And I said, "Well, I can do that." So, I started writing.
About when?
’74 I wrote my first song that was recorded, and I gave it to Sy Kerry?, and he arranged it for me. It’s called "The Shady Side of Town", and this group called The Committee recorded it. Then I came back with another group I wrote for, Smoke. I wrote "Make Believe". And I think that was ’75. I wrote a couple of songs that got recorded in ’75. And I came back in ’76 and decided to do my own thing. And a different recording company, Kansas City Records, we did a song, a couple of 45’s. It was like "___Day and Night". Oh, man, beautiful song, and it did quite well on the charts. And in ’78 I did another one.
Now, how were those distributed?
We had some distributor out of Tennessee.
Were you doing R&B and soul at this point?
Yeah, and after that I kind of just dropped off because the whole industry changed. It went to disco. Work just dried up. Everything just shut down. There was no place to really play gigs or do anything. You might get a gig, but it was a party or something. No clubs was doing too much of booking bands.
Were you touring very much after you left Chicago, or did you pretty much stay in Kansas City?
I was still traveling. I never stopped traveling to New Orleans, Dallas, Houston, played all of those places, pretty much in the middle of the country.
Now, didn’t you tell me you played with Johnnie Taylor?
Yeah, I played quite awhile with Johnnie Taylor. Johnnie Taylor was working the Midwest area where I would naturally play (guitar) with him and when he’d go back East he’d pick up another band back there. It was pretty common back then because the artists made all the money. The bands would only made what the bands was getting paid. But, we knew his stuff. We did stuff for Bobby Womack, Rufus Thomas, Stylistics, Al Green.
You played big halls then.
Yeah, mostly big halls. If we played clubs, it was something like we were in the area, like if we did something in Dallas we might do something in Denison the following night. I enjoyed it. Didn’t make a lot of money, but I kept my chops up. I remember one night I was playing this gig with Johnnie Taylor. His girlfriend was down there. She’d been drinking, so I was singing this song, "Something Is Wrong With My Baby", and she comes up and lays some roses at my feet. I think I got to him! (Laughter) Scared the hell out of me. I said, "I know I’m not going to get paid now." That was one of the funny things that happened. And, I guess another scary thing that happened to me is I was playing at this club in Dallas, and they had Aretha Franklin in there and several other big acts, and they had one hit group out that was never a group. It was a group called the Eighth Day, and they had this hit song, but it was never a group. It was only a studio band, session players that put this song out. And, somehow or other I got this gig and had no idea I was supposed to be this group, so check it out. I found it kind of strange the way they introduced me, so we go out and start playing and all of a sudden I got this white girl standing over here by me and I heard somebody in the audience say, "That’s not the Eighth Day." And, that’s when I found out we was supposed to be this group called the Eighth Day. Somebody made beaucoup money! Yeah, I was glad to get outta that one! I was nervous! Don’t do me like that. Then I’ve had a few times where I had been a warm up act for somebody, and then they don’t show. Shew, the crowd’s not pleased, and these old men sitting out here steady drinking, and they’re getting quieter and quieter and quieter. That’s a hairy feeling. You know the place is gonna break out, and it do break out.
Tell us something about Rufus Thomas.
Well, when I played with Rufus I was just really getting the feel of the guitar pretty good, and we was playing this song "Walkin’ the Dog", and Rufus turned around and told me to play a guitar solo. Oh, I almost freaked out. No, you don’t want me to do this, do you? Yeah, man, come on. No, no please don’t make me do this. So, finally he got me to play it. I don’t know what it sounded like, but for me to step up front and play a guitar solo, it was like Oh, man, I never did this before. Yeah, that was pretty hairy. Rufus was so easy to work with. Johnnie Taylor was just the opposite. One night we was down in Florida playing and Johnnie was half drunk, and I don’t know why he hired this guy in the first place. You know, he needed a blues guitar player. The guy was playing like a toy guitar with a toy amplifier. I was playing rhythm, and Johnnie calls for this guy to play a blues solo, and it sounded like, Johnnie took this guy’s guitar and broke it. (Laughter)
Any other memories come to mind from that time period?
I can remember back that times was really tough. And even though you play music, if you wanted to live halfway decent you had to have a job. You had to play music and still have a job. Now, the guys that did that, they drove cars. The guys that didn’t, they had to have a ride. And, so I always tried to keep home on top first.
So, what kind of jobs would you pick up?
Well, I’ve been in machines a long time, machine shops, and I went down and got special training for it, and then when I got back from Chicago I could go study the computers. They were brand new back then. So, I got off into computer programming for machine shop work and stuff like that. And I was pretty fortunate. I was able to make ten bucks an hour on the job back then. That was the thing, be able to support your family.
Did that make you tied down to Kansas City?
No, it was like a weekend thing. Most acts came through here would either be playing Kansas City or somewhere in Oklahoma or down in Dallas or Denver, someplace I can get to between the time I got off from work, or sometimes I might even take that Friday off. Even now I still do it the same way. I might fly out of here Friday and be in California to do a gig at 9:00 at night. It’s just that fast. And I still have a job. I respect the job. Music is fun, but it ain’t about a lot of money.
Kansas City Sound vs. Others:
You lived in New Orleans, Kansas City, the Mississippi Delta. Tell me some of the differences in the three towns, music-wise.
Music-wise I think people in Kansas City are more open and a lot easier to work with than those other areas. Say, for instance, in Mississippi this is the way you do it regardless of where you came from. They’re like this is the way it go whether it’s right or wrong. Timing for instance. A lot of musicians down there had really bad timing, but you couldn’t say that they were wrong because this is the way they played. For instance, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, that’s not the way they do it. They play the line, there might be five beats there. And then here comes a surprising change. And, New Orleans was a little different. New Orleans was like OK, you want me to play a shuffle. I’m gonna play you a shuffle. It’s the weirdest kind of shuffle you ever want to hear. It’s different, but it’s still a shuffle. Whereas in Kansas City, it’s like, uh, we play a shuffle. How do you want it played? Do you want it up, you want it down, you want the one and the two, or the two and the four, or the one and the three, or whatever. And, guys here adapt. They listen to you play. There’s a lot of good musicians here in Kansas City.
And, what about Chicago?
Chicago’s awesome. You got so many different types of people coming from so many different areas, and when they all get together it’s different. Chicago and Texas, I think is the most differentest type of blues. Texas has their own style. Chicago has so many different styles, and all of the sounds are good.
And Kansas City has?
Kansas City has a different type of blues. The whites are really playing a bluesy rock, a rock-type of blues. And the blacks are playing down home blues. You got a little different type of thing going there, you know, here in Kansas City. And that’s probably one of the reasons that when musicians get together they listen to each other, to see which side of the fence you’re coming from, and they make the adjustment. But, white guys can play down home blues just as well as the black guys, but for some reason they favor their own particular style of blues. For instance, the Back Alley Band, great band. John Paul, great, great band. But, it’s different.
Because it’s more rock tinged?
Yeah, yeah, but the bass is still blues. And it’s good. It sounds good.
Do you think that maybe Jay McShann, Joe Turner, Count Basie, some of those guys still have some influence going on with what the style is here in Kansas City?
I think they was really the ones that really gave Kansas City their sound. All of those guys was pumping it out way back, you know when I was too young to really go in the clubs. I used to sit and watch some of these groups, sit in the window and watch them, you know back down on 12th Street. They had blues clubs down on 12th Street. They wouldn’t let us go in since we were too young.
Back in the mid-to-late 50’s then?
Yeah.
Early Years in the Business
You were telling me about having to pay to have your records on the radio, here in Kansas City and all over in ’67 all the way to ’75 or ’78. And, how much did you pay?
$400-$500 bucks.
To the DJ, station manager?
Well, that was quite a bit over my head who they paid it to. I was just the guy on the record. I just know that if you really wanted your material played, you had to buy it, you had to satisfy somebody. And there was a lot of that stuff going on, things like handling drugs, to get your records played. And that was happening all over, I hate to say it, but even with some of the bigger record companies. And they would like kind of favoritize these people and play their music. And another thing that they did, like in those days, "I’ll bring you to Kansas City, it’s kind of like a promotional deal. You come and play for me. OK, the guy does this and you’ve got a packed house here, and the only thing they have to pay out is the expense, you know, driving here, spending the night, stuff like that. But, in the long run they made their money.
Who’s they?
The promoters and record companies.
And where were you living, here in Kansas City?
Well, I started off recording in Chicago with Brunswick Records. I was on Dekar Label along with Tyrone Davis, Chi-lites, and that bunch, and I kind of saw what was happening. It was a lot of politics, and things happened really fast, just like overnight. Uh, you could record a song today and hear it on the radio tomorrow. It was just that fast. And that’s kind of the way most of them did it back then. Recording companies back then, they had maybe 8 or 9 different acts within that same company, and what we’d do, we’d go in one night and everybody would record a 45, and we did it just that fast, all 8 or 9 acts. One band, they played all the music. And, a few months later we’d go on tour, the Brunswick artists, just that fast. We didn’t make a lot of money, but it was a lot of fun.
Are you talking about ’67?
’67, 68, ’69, 70. I came back to KC to live in ’72. I’d been here since ’55.
Tell us who the tour package was.
Oh, God, that was Barbara Ackling, there was Gene Chandler, there was Tyrone Davis, there was the Chi-lites, there was a really sharp group called the Artistics. I mean they could really perform, put on a show. And the group that I was with was the Visitors. Well, we were the youngsters in the bunch, and at that time we did things very similar to the Temptations, the Impressions.
Now, that’s clear down to your dress?
Yeah, your dress, like everyone looked the same. Everybody had to have their hair done, had to have your shoes shined. You had to have a handkerchief or whatever you call these things, and you had to have some type of jewelry, whether it was cuff links or rings, and it looks really sharp when they put those colored lights on you, flashing lights. Your whole image changed. It was really a lot of fun.
Did you do any of the dance moves, like the Temptations did?
We did that. That was the thang. If you could step and sing, hey, you had it made. You always had an audience, you know. And, I guess back then we did New York with James Brown, we was the little fellas on the ticket, but anyway we opened up for James Brown, and I think that was ’67 or ’68. We did DC, Detroit, Philadelphia, Boston, New Orleans, Dallas, Houston, Memphis, a few other places. I always wanted to do the California thing, but for some reason we never went to California.
Now were those mainly black clubs or were they crossover?
Crossover. At that time it was getting over really big with the white audience also. And in them days it was getting more so than blues. It was the new music, and everybody had caught onto it, and blues was like I like blues, but I like this too because this is different. Everybody’s uniformed, dressed, the band is sharp, the lights was great, horns.
Did the Motown thing help this happen for most of the labels. Did Motown kind of pave the way for that?
Well, to tell you the truth about it, I think Motown picked it up from somebody else. They got the idea and where they did things different was like, the way I understand it, was instead of taking one act and putting all of your money on this one act, they took several acts and divided it up, put equal amount of exposure, advertising, and promotion on each group, and all of them did good. The Four Tops, Smokey Robinson, Temptations. And, it kind of picked up with the independent companies like for instance Stack, Brunswick, the Philadelphia sound, I forget the name of them. Anyway, they picked it up, and they had several acts, and within that one organization they’d come out and do a complete show with just their artists. And it was fun.
Were there a lot of drugs?
Well, there was a lot of that happening, but we didn’t let it happen to us. I didn’t know what marijuana was until I got to Chicago, and I just kind of stayed away from that. It was like we had other problems in our group. We was all young, we was roudy, we would fight, do stupid stuff.
Guns and knives?
No, no. No guns and knives, but if somebody intimidated somebody in this particular organization, they might get in one hell of a fight. Laughter.
Did alcohol play any role in that?
No, not really. Look at these people like this. They’ve been scuffling ever since they was little bitty kids. Now they got an opportunity, but even though they’ve got this opportunity, the little things they used to do, stealing, fighting, and stuff like that, they never got away from that. And those are the kind of problems that I was having with my people. I had one guy in my group that he didn’t get paid the money that he was promised, so he went up in the attic, came down through the President’s office, and pulled this asbestos or whatever they had in the ceiling down, reached down and picked up this $6000 mink coat, heisted it up, and went to New York. And, I got a call that Monday morning that they thought that he had taken this guy’s mink coat, and he was about to be killed, you know. Well, this particular guy, well, he was one heck of a singer, but he just couldn’t stay out of trouble, and he ended up in prison. In fact, he’s still in prison. I think he did eventually get on the drug thing, and it was like, we had to replace him, and it was kind of sickening, you know. And then, it was other things happening like there was a lot of back stabbing. Other recording companies would try to sabotage your organization, your works, your songs, and it was pretty ruthless. You know, I’ve seen single artists travel with shotguns. If I don’t get my money, I’m gonna blow somebody’s head off. Now I was down in Austin, and I was with this guy. I ain’t gonna call no names, but he had a pretty good hit out there. We did a gig. It was a great gig. So, someone wanted us to do an after hours gig. So, we did the after-hours gig, and it was crowded and packed. So, when I went to pick up the money to pay the band, well, I saw this particular artist and the promoter. The artist had a shotgun on him, "I want all of my money." I just kind of backed up and went on out. But, yeah, there was a lot of that going on.
The Clubs, the Good Ol’ Days:
Well, tell me about 12th Street, its an open environment.
12th Street, 12th Street! It was where everyone wanted to be, but nobody got along down on 12th Street. I mean, the more they drank, the more they fought. There was nothing for you to go into this club and see a big, big fight and say, "I don’t want to be around here." Go into the next club. Same thing. Big, big fight. Somebody’s either talking to someone’s woman… And, it was like that every weekend.
Was it really crowded?
Always. Always crowded. In fact it got so crowded down there until they ventured out. They started opening clubs on Troost, Prospect, 31st Street, 31st and Prospect, 31st and Indiana. Black Orchid. Starlight Lounge. Club Prestige. Ollie Gates Place, OG’s. And, then Kansas opened up. They had 50-Yard Line, they had a Club 19 Hole which was supposed to be a golf organization. Several more clubs. Kansas City was wide open, booming every weekend up until about 3:00 in the morning.
Well, now there were still very few white faces at that time, right?
Well, in certain areas. In the black clubs, you didn’t see very many whites, although there were whites there. And in the white clubs you didn’t see no blacks other than the entertainers.
Now, which ones were the white clubs?
Oh, there were clubs on Troost. I forget some of the names, but there was a club down there on 34th or 35th on Troost called Oscar’s which had great entertainment. And, they had more of a mixed crowd. And then you had clubs over on Main Street, and it’s been so long I forgot some of their names. There were a lot of football players (Kansas City Chiefs) that had clubs around town.
What year span are we talking about now?
We’re talking about up until about ’70.
Any real difference between 12th and 18th Streets? Different neighborhoods?
Well, the music was different. They had big time bands on 18th Street where they had the smaller blues bands in the clubs on 12th Street. Count Basie, I don’t remember him playing on 12th Street. I remember him playing on 18th Street.
Sands at 19th and Vine?
Yeah, that was the old Mardi Gras. And then there was a club down there called the Blue Room. And, I forgot some of the names of the others, but most of the bigger bands that would come through, they would play down on 18th Street.
The Acts:
Do you remember any of the particular blues acts you caught when you were growing up in Kansas City?
Blues acts? I used to catch a lot of jazz acts, too. I remember the first act I saw was this group called the Falcons. They came in and really lit the place up. And then there was this guitar player, Wes Montgomery. The guy with the crooked trumpet, Dizzy Gillespie. Now he was my favorite. But they was jazz-blues orientated.
Well, the town was kind of open either way.
Yeah, whereas down on 12th Street you’d have Albert Collins, Albert King, somebody in that category. And, I remember when people like Jackie Wilson and James Brown, they were coming. They’d do it all together different. They’d go to the Municipal Auditorium. I can’t remember them ever playing in a small club where they did in other cities, but they never did here in Kansas City.
Who was bringing the acts in then?
Well, you had different promoters from other cities that would come in and book shows down at the Municipal Auditorium. Club owners would book their own acts, and then there was Willy Cyrus. He was the first person to have a Thanksgiving Breakfast Dance, and he used to have it at Town Hall Ballroom every year. Amazing thing about that, the very first Thanksgiving Breakfast Dance that we played I went to jail just before the gig. I have no idea why I went to jail, but me and my drummer, you know Little Brother, we was just walking down the street. Policeman made a U-turn, picked us up, took us straight to jail. So, we had to stay there a couple of hours, and our keyboard player came down and got us out.
Who are some of the acts that are still around town that you were seeing back then?
Oh, you got Millage Gilbert, King Alex, Sonny Kenner, Lawrence Wright, Little Hatch, George Jackson. Leon Estelle is now gone.
KC Unions
Did you join the union?
Yeah, 627. 627 was horrible. I’ll tell you what I did. I joined the union, and I don’t know who it was came to town, but they needed a guitar player, so I took the gig. I was playing at the Town Hall Ballroom, and here come this union man in. He was asking for union cards. OK, I gave him my union card and there was several people up there that didn’t have union cards, so rather than take their money and put a fine on them, they took my money and suspended me. So, that cost me $300 and some dollars, and I did it again. This was back ’69, ’70, and it happened to me three times, and finally I said, "Uh, uh, no." And, something happened with Eddie Baker. He got in the same dispute, but his was big money, something like $17,000, and he went to the union in New York and protested. And, New York came here, and whatever they said, they took both unions and put them together. And, that’s what really brought the blacks and whites together when the two unions merged. But, it was still like, these guys over here get the best gigs. They was picky about who got the best jobs. If you didn’t have a name in music, you didn’t get no gigs. Which brought on another problem. Well, the lesser black musicians and the lesser white musicians said, "What about us? We’re musicians, too. Why you never give us gigs?" And, so everything kind of went downhill from there. We just stopped dealing with the unions here in Kansas City, everybody, blacks, whites. We said we’ll just go over here and work for the club owners and forget you all. That was the latter part of the ‘60’s and middle part of the 70’s. And, the best gigs right at the end they were giving was you might get a gig playing a convention, class reunion, something like that. You might get $30, and it went downhill from there. Now nobody has respect for the unions. The unions here didn’t stand up for musicians, whereas the unions in New York or California, hey, I don’t have any problem, you know.
Well, excuse my ignorance, but how did the gigs come about?
Well, the promoters would say this is who I want to play whether you’re in the union or not. That’s how I got busted out there at Town Hall.
But, if you played a convention or class reunion, how would those gigs come about?
Well, they would call the union and ask for a band that played a particular type of music, and the union would go down the list and find out who’s not working. And, they would choose the most popular of those that’s not working.
Do you like going into the Mutual Musicians Foundation these days even though that’s the old union hall?
Yeah, I like going down there because it’s new now. It’s a whole different atmosphere down there now. A friend of mine’s running it, Donald Cox, and he’s brought the youngsters in and taught them jazz, taught them how to play it and make it really sound good.
Intro to the Blues via King Alex:
So, this is all pre-disco. Then disco hit Kansas City…
And just wiped it out. And I guess from about 1978 until 1988 I didn’t even pick up my guitar. There was no place to play in town or out of town. So, I guess it was about ’87 my marriage done got shaky, split up, and I decided I was going to play again. And, I started back playing, but I started back playing gospel. I didn’t even know anything about blues clubs. I didn’t even know if Kansas City still had blues clubs ‘cause I’d been out so long. And, one night my cousin came and got me, "Hey I want you to come down here. I want you to hear this band", and it was King Alex. So, I went in that Friday night, and I listened to ‘em, and the club owner knew me. And, so she had been having a problem with Doug (guitar…. So, that Saturday night about 10:00 she called me and asked me would I come in and sit in for Doug? And, that’s really when I really got into the blues. (It had been R&B until then.) And Doug was sitting over in a booth over there with his leg cocked up and his guitar in his arm, asleep. And, she just let him sleep. And after the gig they went over and woke him up, and he didn’t even know anything about it. (Laughter) … But, anyway, I played with King Alex. I liked King Alex. I learned a lot from King Alex and Leon Estelle. I was only a few of the guys that Leon would really sit down with and show his thing.
Leon Estelle and the Forming of Smiley’s Style:
Tell us about Leon.
Leon was a creative musician, all of the time creating. When he was playing a gig, he’d be all the time creating, coming up with new stuff all the time. And, I could tell when he’d come up with something different ‘cause he’d look over there at me and give me that look.
You were playing rhythm, and he was playing lead?
Yeah, and I did a lot of singing because he didn’t sing, whenever I’d gig with him. And he showed me a lot of stuff. Well, I’d take what Leon showed me, which Leon didn’t have a lot of rhythm. He just had a lot of pretty blues, and I would play the same thing, but I’d put that funky rhythm behind it. And, somebody told me I was a pretty good guitar player. I still don’t get off on that, but I’ve taken what I’ve learned from the pros and kind of put it into my own thing and now I think I’ve got a style of my own.
You’re saying "now". You’re talking about just recently?
Yeah, just recently, from over the years of collecting your ideas and your ideas and putting it into my music and the way I feel. I feel music upwise, and if I’m playing blues I’m gonna make you cry. I’m gonna steal your heart. I really get into it, deep into it. It’s just something I take very seriously. I wrote a song "This Time I Got the Blues". I don’t know if you remember that, but if you listen to the lyrics, the music is great, but the lyrics is awesome.
Blues in the Soul and Lessons Learned:
Now, you’re talking about passion. What is the difference between blues and R&B? How did you know it was blues when you saw King Alex?
The style. The chord progression and the lyrics. And the way he expressed, the way he brought it out. It was like certain parts you see him lean back and he’d grab those notes and hold ‘em and cry with ‘em, you know.
And, you hadn’t seen that in R&B?
No, not in R&B.
You’d been touched by the blues before now, but is this a turning point of when you started to feel the blues in your soul?
Well, my life gave me the blues! But, what I’ve done is I’ve taken what I’ve learned in R&B, the bluesy part of R&B, and I’ve took the down home blues, and I’ve mixed them together for a real soulful sound. It’s just like gospel. It’s just like being in church, and I think I’m going to go with that. I know people across America who loves it, that type of soulful, strong type of thing.
You were struck with the blues when you were playing with King Alex?
Yeah, I was going through a bad time, and I finally realized how I felt and how playing and singing blues, it kind of mellowed my ego down or something like that. I got it out. I done got out here and screamed and hollered in front of all these people, and now I feel like I can go home and go to sleep.
Was this a turning point?
Yeah, yeah, but then it got to be fun. It got to be where I enjoyed it, then I noticed that people around, they loved it. And it was at one of the festivals, I think it was the Spirit Festival, and this was way back then, ’88 or ’89, somewhere back then. I was still playing with King Alex, and the Kansas City Star gave me a write up for playing this guitar solo. I forgot the name of the song, but I’d learned how to feel the blues from Doug and King Alex and Leon Estelle, and several others, it was no problem, and I guess with the R&B sound I had, the blues guitar was something probably new to some people’s ears. And they gave me a write up. The first write up I’d ever had in the Star. And, I just kind of took it from there and went with it. This is what I’m gonna do. Then, I guess we decided to put the BWB Band together.
Wait, first, who was with King Alex at that time?
Originally it was Doug, King Alex on the bass, and Sticks (Robert Lock). But, King Alex, I guess he found himself punishing them. He fired them all and picked up Jeff Lucas (keyboards) and Adam Page on bass to relieve him on bass and Ricky Hardy on the drums. He had one hell of a band. He had more band than he could handle. And, I guess we played together a year or so, and he got to the point where he’d drink too much, and I couldn’t stand it no more. He’d be falling on stage, and then he got to the point where he’d say, "Now, Ladies and Gentlemen, I’m gonna sing Sweet Sixteen." OK, now we’ve finished playing Sweet Sixteen, and here we go again, back to back. "Now, Ladies and Gentlemen, we’re gonna sing Sweet Sixteen." And we’re looking across stage like, "What are we gonna do here?" And, so it got to the point where I just couldn’t handle it no more, but I always respected him. I always respected him. King Alex had a way of saying things like, "It ain’t what you do. It’s how you do it." And, a lot of people might take that kind of light. But, that’s a pretty solid statement. And, so I kind of kept that in mind since he told me that. It’s like when you come out on stage, you dress right. Are you ready to perform? Can you even satisfy this particular audience you’re playing for? King Alex was pretty serious about all of that stuff. And, it just about applies to everything in the music business. It’s not what you do. It’s how you do it. You can be the best player in the world and never go anywhere, but if you know somebody, that’s how you do it. And that statement always stuck with me. Every time I get ready do something I go back to King Alex. Now how am I gonna do this? And, I’ve had pretty good success with it.
Mayfield Towns and the BWB Band:
When did you leave King Alex?
I left King Alex in, I think, 1990, and I kind of flirted around with just playing with different groups and stuff. And then Mayfield Towns came over one day and said, "Smiley, let’s put us together a professional blues band. I know this other guy. He wants to do the same thing." So, it was me, Mayfield, and Johnny C (Copowycz). So, I went out and talked to Johnny, and we all hit it right off. And, we went and picked up some serious musicians, and I guess it took us about a month. The other musicians were Kim Peeler on the bass, Calvin Whitmore on saxophone, and Reggie May on trombone, and we couldn’t keep a drummer at that time. We couldn’t find a drummer that had the personality and actually fit in with us. Sometimes black drummers didn’t like the way this white guy over here’s playing, and vice-versa. So, we went to Mike (Lightnin’ Mike--now with Cotton Candy), and … he could hold the rhythm, he was dependable, and he was always willing to help. And, that’s what we really needed, not so much the professional boom boom drummer, and we developed a pretty solid sound. We couldn’t find a keyboard player at that time, but finally I ran into Jeff Lucas, and we was solid. As soon as we got things going right and things were happening in our favor, Mayfield gets sick. Well, when Mayfield passed away, it was a group without a leader, and that’s actually what happened to the BWB Band. That was ’94 or ’95.
I need to add that the Mayfield Band was a real show band. You know--the dress, the moves. Mayfield had been on the Kansas City scene a long time. He’d been one of the Lawrence Wright and the Starlighters and other bands.
Right. When Mayfield first came to Kansas City, he didn’t know nobody. At that time I just happened to pick him up and give him a ride. He was outside with some brushes (vacuum brushes?) or some books or something, and he was in Raytown. It was hot outside, smokin’. This was ’72 or ’73, somewhere along in there. And, we hooked up then. We put a band together, but I was already playing with another group, so it got pretty hard to do playing with another group. And so eventually Mayfield went with Lawrence Wright, and we played off and on behind different people. It just depends on what type of band was playing. Like if Johnnie Taylor or someone came into town, Mayfield did things like that with me. Lawrence Wright, they very seldom did anything other than Lawrence Wright. They didn’t play too many shows.
It’s kind of fate the way you guys met the way you did.
Yeah, I felt sorry for Mayfield, tell you the truth. This man was walking down the street, it was 100 degrees outside. This man has got a black suit on, white shirt, and something in his hand here, and he was sweatin’, so I stopped and gave him a ride.
You didn’t know he was a musician?
No, I didn’t know he was a musician ‘til he got in the car. I was just givin’ the brother a ride, you know. And, I guess a couple of days later he met Barbara (Towns). At that time Mayfield was going through one heck of a divorce, and his ex-wife was really treating him bad, and I think Barbara kind of helped him through that time period. And pretty soon they got married. Mayfield had a dog. I’m gonna tell you he was a great dane, and when he hopped on me, he was bigger than me. I’m looking up at this dog slobbering down on me. Oh man, I hated to go over to his house. I’d go over to practice. I didn’t like it, but I’d have to put up with it. And, I wasn’t gonna argue with that dog! Anyway we went on and did the thing with the BWB Band, and it was a great experience.
At that time was the BWB Band touring?
It was mainly local. We did the Midwest thing, maybe Des Moines, Lincoln, Columbia. It was nothing real big. We’d play behind people, behind Albert King, Ronny Lovejoy, several people. And, what we’d do, we’d play for the whole show, not just as a warm-up band. And when Mayfield died, it took everything out of the band. For a long time I’d be looking over to where Mayfield was supposed to be, and sometimes I’d think I’d actually hear him. Barbara gave Mayfield’s horn to Calvin. One night we was playing, and I heard him, all these riffs. Mayfield had a big horn. He had a big, big sound. Now Calvin’s instrument was very pretty, but it didn’t have the guts. Then when he grabbed the Selmer that Mayfield had, it opened up all kinds of new doors for Calvin. So, after Mayfield died, well, Brody (Buster) came along, and Brody needed help, so his father and I had been talking, and his father told me Brody admired me so much, and me and Brody just kind of hooked up. It was like he was my kid. That was in ’95.
How much of the vocals were you doing at this point?
Basically all of the vocals. When we got Jeff in the group, then I had help. Well, Johnny would sing the rock type of blues thing, and we had a pretty nice show.
You and Brody bonded. You gave him a lot of lessons.
Yeah, I tried to give him everything I had that he was capable of learning at that age. His stage presence was like pretty poor when I first met him, and it took a long time to get him to don’t worry about the band back here. But, he was just a little kid (8), and he’d just go out there and tear it up, then he’d come back and he’d look at you. And, I’d be like Brody, no, no, no. So, I got him to watching the horns over there, but Brody would watch you for awhile, then he’d watch the drummer back here, and on and on. But, what we didn’t know Brody was learning these instruments. He was getting a feel for these instruments. And, pretty soon next thing I know Brody was playing the drums, and I done got him together on some guitar, some bass, and it really used to bother me when his mother would get on him. No, no, not before a show. She’d get on him for not concentrating on stage. It was about Brody, and she wanted him to capture the audience. We didn’t see it like that as a band. So, we’d make this big, gigantic sound for Brody and just kind of set him in the middle of it. Now you just do whatever you want to do.
Now you were on the Jay Leno Show and other shows?
Yeah, we did a lot of stuff like that, Good Morning, America, Disneyland, Ceasar’s Palace…
The White House with Bill?
No, I never met Bill. I wanted to meet Bill, but he was always moving. And he was always so quick to cancel out. He was supposed to rehearse with us and this and that, but it was cold outside. It was too cold for him to come outside. And, he kind of bummed out on us and left us out there, and it was freezing out there, the wind was blowing.
President Bill Clinton left you out there in the cold.
Yeah, he left us out there. Two days. Strung us out there. He was supposed to be there. He wouldn’t do it. (Laughter)
OK, now, are you still going out on tours with Brody, because he has a new band now?
I gig with him ever once in a while. We did a gig, I guess two weeks ago, for some radio station. I came back from California in ‘97.
Why, again, were you in California.
Well, Brody and I had moved to California. We was out there a couple of years (with Brody’s mother). I came back in ’97, went back to work and put my own band together. I did the CD (Straight From the Soul) before I put the band together. And, the places I’d been and what I experienced from those places and the type of audience that was coming to see us. Well, I knew what kind of music they enjoyed, and that’s why I put this particular CD together. It’s a mixture of R&B and blues. I don’t know if I’ll sell a lot of CD’s, but I get a lot of gigs.
The CD
Well, I gotta give you a plug. Where would someone get a CD?
That number is 816-358-4592. Sharon Burns.
Yeah, we came back from LA. Brody and I. I decided to put together my own CD. We’d done a cross country tour. I knew the type of music that the partying people like, the sound they want. So, I decided to come back and put together a CD of party music, interesting music, a little bit different but still got that strong background, really trying to get that R&B, blues sound. Not all blues, not all R&B. And, the reason for that is people dance better off of R&B than they do blues. And the type of audience we was playing for, 70% like to dance, and so I come up with this idea right in the middle.
You didn’t even have a band together when you put the CD together. Most people do a band first and a CD second.
Well, at the time I was working nights and making good money (programming computers), so I said, "Well, I’m gonna buy what I need to do this." So, Phyllis (Bowman) and I went out and got everything we needed to have an in-home recording studio, so we can lay all the music down, but we can’t actually do the vocals like it should be done at home. But, we took the computer to the studio, and we recorded everything from the computer, the music, on the master tape, and we layed everything else actually in the studio. And, it took me about 30 hours to get it mixed down. That’s the music, background and lead vocals, plus the lead instruments.
And they’re all original songs that you and Phyllis wrote?
Yeah, we had a lot of fun putting it together. Had a lot of fun. Had a lot of fights, too! For awhile there I didn’t think I had a home!
Now, on the radio they’ve been playing "Crossroads" from your CD a lot. Tell me about that.
Well, "Crossroads" is a song I like. I’m scared of it ‘cause I’m kind of superstitious, you know. I don’t know if it’s real or not. But, the experiences that we had at the crossroads, when I first got there, it was before they brought in all the casinos and stuff down by Clarksdale. And, the whole area around the crossroads, the trees was all dead, they had moss growing off of them, and there was a cemetery up the highway on 61 there. And, I felt very strange. The first thing that caught my attention was just a regular sign, Buckle Your Seatbelts, It’s the Law. And, it was a very strong statement, and I’m looking at these dead trees out there, and me and Bill Zerbe was together, and Bill was looking at me and said, "Man, I feel kind of strange." And, I said, "Man, I do, too." And, so for the next two or three years we always went back to the crossroads.
Blues vs. Jazz. The Kansas City Sound:
What do you see as the difference between blues and jazz?
I look at jazz as being a very complicated blues, a modification of blues.
Do you think it has the passion that blues has?
Yes, this is for the, what I might say, an advanced ear. What satisfies him is the complication, whereas the common ear, the blues thing, the everyday thing is so sweet. But, there are people who really like that competition, all those different runs that you do in blues, but a lot of the jazz that’s being played today is really based behind blues. Then you got some jazz chord progressions that goes away from the blues mode completely, and I wouldn’t consider that blues. But, it still has a certain relationship to blues, depending on what the bass player’s doing, how he feels. He can take it bluesy or take it downtown.
And, do you still see that in Kansas City? Do you still see the mix of blues and jazz?
It’s not being played as much as it used to, but, yes, it’s still here. You’ve got several good jazz musicians that be playing blues. Rick VanZandt, Duck Warner, those guys are blues based, but they done went so far out there and made it so progressive until you swear he’s playing jazz.
So, you still think there’s a Kansas City sound, like a Chicago sound, a Texas sound?
Kansas City is definitely established as far as sound. And, blues, jazz, and R&B. I know there hasn’t been a lot of artists that left the area and made the big time, but that’s simply because the music industry isn’t here. The talent is here, but the industry is not here--distributors, recording companies.
As per say, Chicago?
Right. It would cost, say for instance, Chicago, to hire me as an artist, it would cost them big bucks ‘cause they got to fly me, take care of my hotel expenses, while they got plenty of guys there every bit as good and better already there in Chicago, so that cuts the Midwest out. To be discovered, I don’t think that happens anymore. I think nowdays the musician has to make himself. He has to establish himself and go from there. The recording companies do look for material, but they don’t go out in the clubs to see who’s doing this and that. Now they have agencies that handles that for them. Now if they want that certain type of sound, they’ll call this certain agency to tell them what they need. And, it cuts out the musician if he doesn’t go through an agency, a lawyer, a manager. And, just because you have a lawyer and a manager doesn’t mean that they can get you in the industry.
The Industry. Making It:
So, the industry’s a little harsh, a little more about bargaining.
Right, it’s more about what do I need right now? And right now you got television big time on this type of music. I would say musicians today should consider that, television, whenever they put CD’s and things together because you’d be surprised at how related the recording industry is to the television industry.
Do they have to leave their roots of what they really want to do and get into commercialism?
No, not really. But, you have to be smart. You have to know people, and you have to stay on top of it, to go find the people you need. Who will talk to me? Who will play my CD? Who’s interested? You have to find those people. I’ve been lucky because I’ve played gigs for a lot of DJ’s all across the country who know me, so that opens certain doors for me. I’ve played behind people who really needed me to do them a favor, so they returned the favor for me. They turned me on to people they know and on and on. So, as far as you being discovered on somebody’s stage nowdays, it just might not happen.
The State of the Blues and Radio:
What do you think of the state of the blues? Is it too rockish, or is there room for all of it?
Well, there’s definitely room for all of it. It’s like this. You listen to the radio stations that are playing blues, and then you kind of figure out what is being played the most, what sound is being played the most. It’s pretty even.
But, it’s mostly public radio anywhere in the country where you hear the blues.
True, true, but that’s what we have to listen to. We have to listen to what they play. We have to accept it. But, say for instance you go to a station like KPRS (103.3), different ballgame, altogether different ballgame. If you ain’t been on the top 10, you don’t get played. If nobody knows you, you don’t get heard.
That’s because this is a commercial station. They have one hour of blues on Mondays from noon to 1:00, then they have three hours of blues, more of an R&B feel, with White Hat Mike on Sundays from 5:00-8:00.
Yes, and this is like that in a lot of places across the country.
Actually, we have more blues on the radio and in the clubs than most places in the country. We have KKFI (90.1) and KCUR’s Fish Fry (89.3) also.
The Youth of Today and the Direction of Blues:
Now, we used to have barn parties, all kinds of fun. It seems like the good ol’ days are over.
Yeah, when we were that age, we were kind of different than these kids are today. The kids today are wearing their pants hung all across their butts, and I’m bad, and rapping and stuff. It wasn’t like that when I was coming up. When I was coming up, it was like if we got in a fight it was never a gun or knife. You might get a black eye or get your nose busted.
Well, now some people say that rap is a derivative of blues.
I don’t think so. I think it’s control. That whole idea of rapping was to gain control. The lyrics told me that. I’m bad, I’m bad. I know that’s not real.
Is there any coming around for those people to the blues, or where’s the blues headed?
If they got into music seriously, I think blues would be the first direction they’d go.
How are you going to reach them?
Right now they’re getting the door slammed in their face. I don’t know. I guess they’re just going to have to mature, grow up. Street life brings death to so many of them, getting banged up, shot up, ending up in jail. In fact, right now I’ve been doing a lot of reading, and you can’t hardly find anybody who will book a rap concert.
Good!! Well, what you were saying earlier was that blues is kind of the thing you matured into. Then you were talking about jazz being something that as a musician you kind of matured into.
Well, when I got bored playing the blues scene, that’s when I ventured over into the jazz scene. And, I found out the progressions are about the same. It’s just the style and the technique was different.
But, neither the blues nor the jazz hits the mainstream. How are we going to hit the mainstream?
It’s like this. Each category has had its turn. There’s going to be somebody that comes up with something in the music field that’s going to catch that ear. It’s just like rap did, just like disco did, and on and on.
Do you think that the Stevie Ray Vaughans and the Johnny Langs are going to bring it?
No, I think they have just polished what was already laid out there for them.
B.B. King’s been in Wendy’s ads, and it’s on other commercials. People don’t know it’s blues, so it’s catching on subtly.
It’s going to be someone like Elvis Presley come in here and just change the whole thing. You watch.
No Black, No White, Just Blues?:
For blacks and whites?
Yes. That’s the way this country’s going now. You know, 20 years ago you didn’t go to a club and see a mixed crowd. Now it’s very common.
However, in some places in Kansas City, it’s not. And, a lot of the blues societies throughout the country and a lot of the festivals we go to don’t have very many black faces, and that disturbs a lot of us, black or white.
This is the way blacks are. You are listening to music that has been played for 40 years that blacks are just used to hearing all their lives, and to a white audience it’s relatively new to them. Whereas to a black person that listens, it bores them.
Even though there’s so much passion in the blues, they lose their passion for it?
Unless you are Johnnie Taylor or B.B. King or somebody that’s really laying it out there, blacks is just like, "This is secondary. I don’t want this."
What do they listen to instead?
They listen to R&B mainly and they listen to blues, too. And, let me tell you something else about blacks. Now you take someone who’s lived in a black neighborhood all their lives, it’s hard to get them to come out of that neighborhood because they feel out of place.
They won’t go to the Grand Emporium or Blayney’s, but they’ll go to the Epicurean and those types of clubs.
Yeah, but those clubs aren’t playing blues. They’re playing R&B and jazz. And, that is bad here in Kansas City. But, you go other places, for instance California, and it’s pretty common.
Why is it so different here? There are blacks and whites in California and blacks and whites here.
Well, blacks and whites in California are more together than they are here. The Blues Society has done a lot as far as bringing the two together, but they haven’t went and got that person in front of the television and listening to MTV or whatever.
How are they going to get them?
If you brought in top quality blues acts, for instance, you’ll get ‘em.
Who are you talking about top blues acts?
When you talk about Bobby Womack, Johnnie Taylor, Al Green, somebody in that category.
Well, many of the whites haven’t heard of some of them, but it would bring some blacks which is a major goal.
And, it might not bring the white audience.
You know, a lot of people haven’t heard of Johnnie Taylor.
If they put it on airwaves. It’s like this. Say for instance Johnnie Taylor’s coming in here, six weeks before he comes in here, start playing him on the air.
That’s happening on the radio stations that are promoting the Thanksgiving Breakfast Dance. KPRS, a commercial station since he’s R&B, and public radio KKFI, and probably Chuck Haddix on the Fish Fry, but those are niches.
That’s what you’re up against. If more stations would pick up on it and get it to the white sector as well as the black sector.
But, it’s not happening on the commercial stations. How are we going to get it to the commercial stations? Elvis?
Well, maybe Brody Buster. Brody got it going on. He’s got both black and white audiences. Everyone’s amazed. It’s going to somebody like that, I think. Brody’s got black roots. Um, I’ve had so many arguments about that. "Why are you doing this for this kid? He’s never going to do anything for you." And, surprisingly, by many top quality players. Like, I had a conversation with Son Seals when I was playing down there at Sonny Boy’s Club in Helena (Arkansas) after the festival (King Biscuit). Son came and sat in with me, and his harmonica player was really upset because I was teaching this kid the blues.
Yes, but there’s some of that. I’ve had conversations with Bobby Rush, and he feels it’s going to be someone like a Jonny Lang to bring it to the mainstream, but he doesn’t resent that.
It’s going to be somebody with a brand new sound. Jonny Lang is playing the same progressions, he has the same SRV. They’re really great musicians, but what they’ve done is make so much progress on what’s already been here. When they decide, "I’m gonna do it like this, and this is the way it’s gonna be", then that’s when we’ll come up with something, when people like that decide "That’s old, that’s out, try my ideas." You know, I remember back in the 70’s and I was playing at this club, and we were playing the same type of music they’re now playing on the radio, and back then people didn’t want to hear it. It’s gonna take somebody. Some youngster is going to come up with some sound that will blow blues to a different level.
Do you think we have to wait that long in Kansas City, or is there something the promoters or the Blues Society can do?
No, it’s in the talent. It’s in the person. It’s amazing how the listening audience can figure this out. I mean, they can hear things. They know they like it whereas a producer hears it, and it goes right over his head. I’ve known producers who wished they signed a guy, and he went on someplace else.
The power is in the wrong place. Look at integration. Musicians knew that. The crowd might have not been integrated, but the musicians were.
Yeah, yeah, even back then blacks and whites were playing together in the ‘60’s even though there were no blacks in the white clubs and vice-versa. And, the black clubs would hire white bands.
New Orleans, Chicago, Kansas City, Mississippi:
Tell me some cultural differences through your time between New Orleans, Chicago, Kansas City, Mississippi.
New Orleans is pretty fast. People down there was basically to themselves, into their own thing. They didn’t do much socializing even though they’d be nice to you. Whereas in Mississippi everybody was so willing to help you. If you didn’t have a dime, you come on over here, and we’ll take care of you. In Kansas City it was more competitive. It was like, I like you, but I can do this better than you, so I’m gonna go over here and I’m gonna keep mine hid until showtime, then you’re gonna see my thang. But, we all had fun. I remember back Marva Whitney, when she first started she was with the Derbys. We had this revue that we was working at, and we was gigging at the ??…. Ballroom in St. Joe, and we had five or six acts on the show that night. All the groups that came out were excellent. It was like Motown, and they took pride in what they did, and we was all friends. But, when it comes to our music we didn’t never combine our music. No, you do your thing, and I’m gonna do my thing over here. It’s never a togetherness thing. Even in Kansas City now it’s like that. When it comes to jam sessions, that’s when you find the best times ‘cause everybody’s open with everybody. You know, you got to play with me now.
Jam Sessions, Gigging, Promotion:
So, do you think we should have more jam sessions?
I think we should have jam sessions every night someplace ‘cause there’s so many people that want to play that don’t get the opportunity other than jam sessions.
All right, how are the clubs going to afford it? Are people going to come out? They’re in front of their TV’s, the drinking and driving laws...
If you’ve got musicians supporting musicians, then you’ll get the people. Wednesday nights at the Roxy (in Overland Park) it took me six weeks to come out of the red.
You’ve got the people--in Johnson County, Overland Park, white Kansas!
Yeah, we don’t have no problems. I got a club that’s either half full or it’s full on Wednesday nights, and all of them aren’t jammers. I think the club owner would get over if he’d allow it time to work.
What do you think about starting gigs earlier for non-musicians, as well as musicians, who go to work the next morning? I know I’d go out if I could go right from work and not get home and settled.
That’s what I do. I start at 8:00 on Wednesday nights at the Roxy, and on Sundays I play 6:00-10:00 at My Way Lounge at 118th Street and Blue Ridge Boulevard in Grandview. It’s a pretty neat club, a black club. They just started this. Hopefully, it will work out for them. Yeah, the musicians usually bring in four or five people, and they tell their friends, and pretty soon you got a pretty good thing going on. People look forward to it. Club owners are like this, they want to make money everytime. Well, everytime you’re not going to make money, you know, but they know more about their business than I do. I don’t have to pay their bills, but I do know that it works. The only place I know it didn’t work was down on 18th and Vine, and it didn’t work there for the simple reason that they had jazz on one corner and blues on the other corner at Club Mardi Gras.
When are you talking about, 1998?
Yeah, they tried it for about a month and a half and never got it off the ground.
I didn’t even know about it. How are they promoting it? See, they need to get involved with the Blues Society, the Jazz Ambassadors.
See that’s the whole key. That’s the whole key. They don’t advertise.
And advertising in those two publications are not expensive. That’s where you meet the like minds. There are people who get the newsletters that won’t go anywhere, but they love getting them. They call or write in and say they have 2.2 kids and don’t go anywhere, but they love getting the newsletter. Well, fine, if they can’t do it right now, where are the people that can?
Well, I think if you promote it right. Just the Pitch and the newsletter and KKFI does wonders. You’d be surprised.
Well, and, again, if they started earlier, I’d go.
Yeah, years ago they used to have a Saturday matinee from 2:00-5:00, then we’d come back and play 9:00-1:00. Then, Monday they’d have what they called Blue Monday, and they always had people there. Blue Monday was awesome.
Where was that?
Oh, all the clubs did it. Monday was the coming thing. Everyone’s going back to work today and want to have a drink before they go home.
The Singer
Sing me a little bit. Make us cry.
Make you cry? I’d rather put the tape in and let you hear it! Smiley hums and imitates guitar, "Hard times, just about to get me down, seems to be the only life for me. Ain’t got no home, I ain’t got nobody. Must be the price that I have to pay. I’ve been missing you so much, Baby,. This time I’ve got the blues."
Applause.
And then, the gutsy blues like for instance was another song I thought was pretty good, telling that woman to get out of my life. "Hey baby, get out of my life. Ain’t nothing left for you to say. You might as well be on your way."
I thought that was a great song. I told the whole story about you been treating me so bad, you’ve been using me, you’ve taken all my money, you’ve taken everything I’ve got. And, now I don’t want you no more. Get out of here. That’s what that was about. I was thinking about this little girlfriend I had when I wrote that song. She was so pretty!
The Motto from the Man with the Thang Goin’ On:
Give me your motto or whatever you’ve got, a closing statement.
Well, my old lady doesn’t like me saying this, but I say, "I got to keep on truckin’, keep on pushin’, keep on reachin’. You know, I don’t know what I’m reachin’ for, but I love it!
And, why doesn’t Phyllis like you saying that?
Well, she says I do it too much! (Raucous Laughter)